I would just note not just Black people are grieving this child, and the failure of the system and the people who created and protect and defend it instead of human beings.
Dental appointment coming up, so this from memory. We had a case a few years back where the police fired at a bad guy as he drove away. A bullet struck and killed a child that the cops did not know was in the car. Two days ago, on a bridge in Toronto I've often walked, driven, rode over and walked under, at about 1:30 a.m., a car rammed a cop up against concrete, injuring him (he'll be okay) and then drove off amid gunfire. The driver stopped, fled, and was caught, and found to be injured by -- something...bullet, shrapnel, something else. He was 12 years old!
I haven't seen today's news but last I heard he had come through surgery and would be charged with, among many things, attempted murder.
In both these cases, especially the last one as it is fresh in my mind, we read that, put simply, thou shall not shoot at a fleeing vehicle unless there is an immediate threat to someone's life, even though thy be a cop.
As always when a police gun is fired in public (I can think of an exception I once witnessed...but that's a whole different story) we await the results of an investigation.
About a week or so ago, in remote northern Ontario, an Ontario Provincial Police officer was struck and killed by a vehicle,, (allegedly) on purpose, driver charged with murder.
And then ere that registered, a special force officer of, I think, the Toronto Police, on a dark-of-early morning high risk raid of an apartment had a single shot fired at him., and was killed.
Had I a gun and had someone rammed me up against concrete, and tried to kill me, I think, gentle though I may be, I'd have emptied the magazine in the direction of his fleeing car provided it was not fleeing toward a crowd, but I'm not a trained cop.
So the rules for police up here are don't shoot. at a fleeing car, and under no conditions is shoplifting grounds for lethal force, full stop, period. But then look at those murders of the ICE protestors...they must be prosecuted. if your country is ever to be regarded one where there is rule of law.
We are a deadly species...always with a reason to kill...but almost never one that is morally justified any which way, IMHO.
I should have explained that no 12 year old gets charged as an adult and his name can't be made public, but I have to wonder if a kid that age can be helped to understand that there is a way of living that is far more productive than car theft. He will be tried in juvenile court, and if convicted sent a specialized supervised youth facility for a limited amount of time. Had he been a year younger -- nothing...no trial, no conviction, just released, albeit with all manner of investigation into his family or care-givers.
If I remember correctly, I have read of kids as young as 10 being charged as an "adult". It seems to me that the whole concept of charging those who are clearly not an adult as "adults" for the purpose of punishment is an anathema to evidence-based rule of law. There are examples of children who pose a danger to society that must me adequately addressed, but "charged as an adult" is not one of them. If the law needs to treat some examples of juvenile behavior as requiring harsher forms of intervention, so be it, but a juvenile is still a juvenile. Pretending otherwise is just plain dishonest and that is it odds with evidence-based justice, and likely, best practice intervention.
There is now a massive body of scientific evidence to the effect that kids that age are not able to think or reason like an adult or comprehend the full or even major part of the consequences of their actions. It is cruel to punish them as though they had the cognitive ability of an adult. I remember the ten year old I once was certainly had a different mental ability than the elderly guy I am now, and as for the teenager...let's not even go there.
The car was driving toward the officer so he had to shoot into the vehicle? Why don’t I believe this? Renee Goods shooting was described this way also, and we know it was a lie. Regardless, deadly force should never be used on someone fleeing from a misdemeanor. Why didn’t the officer simply jump out of the way? This is murder.
Xplisset, once again you have written an analysis of an all-too-common occurrence in the still-rascist USA that should be part of every police training program. Police officers need to use their brains before they even consider using their weapons. Thanks for this.
Please tell me if I am wrong, X.X., to think that all police should have much more training than what was necessary to understand that any police officer who disrespects people, prescribed procedure, and laws like this will be charged with murder or at least manslaughter. This is another tragedy that did not need to occur. The simple sentence you wrote above these comments explains it all - just write down the license tag # on your report and forget about it.
And from my retired-cop perspective, this is not even the advanced class. This is basic academy-level use-of-force thinking.
You are taught that force has to match the threat. You are taught to slow things down when you can. You are taught to know what the underlying charge is. You are taught that deadly force is supposed to be reserved for an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, not simply because someone failed to comply or tried to leave.
That is why this case bothers me so damn much.
Look, I was not there, so I am not going to pretend I know every second of what happened. My suspicion is that this unfolded very fast, maybe too fast for a supervisor to step in during the actual moment. But that does not erase the bigger question.
Why did the situation get to that point at all?
On a reported shoplifting call, the ordinary police answer should be boring: get the tag, get the video, write the report, follow up. That is not weakness. That is just discipline plain and simple.
The public should not have to rely on perfect judgment at the trigger if better judgment was available five decisions earlier.
The subtext here may be that while the facts are still to be gathered in this case, the outcome, like a plane crash, is a tragedy, that needs to be examined carefully to reduce the chance of similar events. Because police organizations in widely-reported past events, seem often to have engaged in cover-ups of police errors or misbehavior, "official" accounts, and especially early official accounts are automatically suspect. I see policing as a noble and essential societal function, but misuse of power is always a possibility in any social circumstance. It seems to me that policing exists to minimize harm, whether that is to stop a thief, foil a plot, arrest an assailant, manage traffic, provide aid, and even, in situations in which there is no practical alternative but deadly force, to use it only when there appears to be no alternative. That is unlikely to be done in full earnestness without some examples of honest mistakes, but even then, aftermath should focus on improvement.
And yet it seems to me that where attempts to cover up malfeasance or misfeasance way too common and way to unaccountable. It seems to me that the primary keeper of the peace in society is our popular support for rule of law and it's enforcement. The great majority of us who are not seriously breaking the law, observe it because we believe in it. Those who write, judge, and carry out our laws have a responsibility, a notch above we ordinary citizens, to perform with honesty and integrity; to prioritize service to society and avoid use of entrusted power in service of self, including recognition and confession of error. That needs to go all the way up to the top; even all the more so; even and especially the president.
I’ve been listening to many podcasts and reading articles about this crime! And that’s exactly what it was…a crime, but the crime was not committed by that little boy, and from everything I’ve learned, the diapers were paid for by the Mothers friend. They went to self checkout. There are cameras everywhere there. That particular town is known for police, ahh problems, to put it mildly. Maybe YOU should do some research, before you make a claim.
Links, please. So far, the issue is still under investigation, and stories are all over the map. And I didn't make any claims. You did. I simply said that we should not jump to conclusions before all the evidence is in. You may be correct that the diapers were paid for. You may be correct that the cop is a racist. But without clear evidence, we really don't know what actually happened. I wouldn't want you on one of my juries because I'd want people who look at the preponderance of the evidence and who listen to all sides before coming to a judgment.
@The 50501 Movement is just one of the many I’ve listened to/read. I’m sorry that I do not have the time or inclination to post every single one. I am an extremely busy person and I fact check every thing I post
Wow I sent you the main link in my reply. I said I fact check everything I post. I am an activist, who still finds the time to have TWO FULL TIME jobs. I run a Community Activist meeting. The time it takes to prove to you what I have read is exhausting. It’s sad that although it seems we want the same thing, I don’t have the energy
I am so sorry this happened. Racism from so many quarters in this, for sure. I am sick of clickbait-worthy hysterical justifications and smoothing over white privilege - this will not bring any of the countless black and brown bodies needlessly killed because someone called poor shots forth. What needs to happen is some real systemic equity in full force all the time (in attitudes and practice) so that black and brown bodies are not put into such compromising situations where desperation makes them vulnerable to temptation and turns them into convenient targets. It would also allow them to breathe and live normally (like real people!) instead of always having to have heightened, hyper-awareness of their lives balancing on a hair-trigger every. single. day. No amount of explaining-away these kinds of things will make true equality a thing, until we get to the root of the racism, and greed and get rid of it once and for all. Black lives matter no matter how young (or old) they are.
My heart breaks over this. It triggers an unspeakable panic and grief over the circumstances and outcome. As you say, answers must be forthcoming and there must be accountability. Not letting this one go.
Witness: There she is, the girl with the baby! She going to the parking lot!
Me: Lemme go get that tag number..
Just to be fair there are allegations the driver attempted to run them over but I’ve had multiple situations like this and didn’t put myself in front of a car of a suspect who is fleeing.
We don't know that she stole anything. The evidence is not in yet. Conflicting stories abound. I've also been a mother on welfare with two young children. But I'd never in a million years steal anything from anyone. Yes, diapers are expensive. But I used cloth diapers when I could not afford the disposable kind. We don't know yet if she stole them or not. But low income is not an excuse. It's the reason we blame low-income people for all kinds of crimes. In fact, people with plenty of money commit crime, too. Just look inside the White House.
Thank you.
I would just note not just Black people are grieving this child, and the failure of the system and the people who created and protect and defend it instead of human beings.
Dental appointment coming up, so this from memory. We had a case a few years back where the police fired at a bad guy as he drove away. A bullet struck and killed a child that the cops did not know was in the car. Two days ago, on a bridge in Toronto I've often walked, driven, rode over and walked under, at about 1:30 a.m., a car rammed a cop up against concrete, injuring him (he'll be okay) and then drove off amid gunfire. The driver stopped, fled, and was caught, and found to be injured by -- something...bullet, shrapnel, something else. He was 12 years old!
I haven't seen today's news but last I heard he had come through surgery and would be charged with, among many things, attempted murder.
In both these cases, especially the last one as it is fresh in my mind, we read that, put simply, thou shall not shoot at a fleeing vehicle unless there is an immediate threat to someone's life, even though thy be a cop.
As always when a police gun is fired in public (I can think of an exception I once witnessed...but that's a whole different story) we await the results of an investigation.
About a week or so ago, in remote northern Ontario, an Ontario Provincial Police officer was struck and killed by a vehicle,, (allegedly) on purpose, driver charged with murder.
And then ere that registered, a special force officer of, I think, the Toronto Police, on a dark-of-early morning high risk raid of an apartment had a single shot fired at him., and was killed.
Had I a gun and had someone rammed me up against concrete, and tried to kill me, I think, gentle though I may be, I'd have emptied the magazine in the direction of his fleeing car provided it was not fleeing toward a crowd, but I'm not a trained cop.
So the rules for police up here are don't shoot. at a fleeing car, and under no conditions is shoplifting grounds for lethal force, full stop, period. But then look at those murders of the ICE protestors...they must be prosecuted. if your country is ever to be regarded one where there is rule of law.
We are a deadly species...always with a reason to kill...but almost never one that is morally justified any which way, IMHO.
I should have explained that no 12 year old gets charged as an adult and his name can't be made public, but I have to wonder if a kid that age can be helped to understand that there is a way of living that is far more productive than car theft. He will be tried in juvenile court, and if convicted sent a specialized supervised youth facility for a limited amount of time. Had he been a year younger -- nothing...no trial, no conviction, just released, albeit with all manner of investigation into his family or care-givers.
If I remember correctly, I have read of kids as young as 10 being charged as an "adult". It seems to me that the whole concept of charging those who are clearly not an adult as "adults" for the purpose of punishment is an anathema to evidence-based rule of law. There are examples of children who pose a danger to society that must me adequately addressed, but "charged as an adult" is not one of them. If the law needs to treat some examples of juvenile behavior as requiring harsher forms of intervention, so be it, but a juvenile is still a juvenile. Pretending otherwise is just plain dishonest and that is it odds with evidence-based justice, and likely, best practice intervention.
There is now a massive body of scientific evidence to the effect that kids that age are not able to think or reason like an adult or comprehend the full or even major part of the consequences of their actions. It is cruel to punish them as though they had the cognitive ability of an adult. I remember the ten year old I once was certainly had a different mental ability than the elderly guy I am now, and as for the teenager...let's not even go there.
I keep relearning what a fool I have been. I guess that's the deal.
The car was driving toward the officer so he had to shoot into the vehicle? Why don’t I believe this? Renee Goods shooting was described this way also, and we know it was a lie. Regardless, deadly force should never be used on someone fleeing from a misdemeanor. Why didn’t the officer simply jump out of the way? This is murder.
Xplisset, once again you have written an analysis of an all-too-common occurrence in the still-rascist USA that should be part of every police training program. Police officers need to use their brains before they even consider using their weapons. Thanks for this.
Please tell me if I am wrong, X.X., to think that all police should have much more training than what was necessary to understand that any police officer who disrespects people, prescribed procedure, and laws like this will be charged with murder or at least manslaughter. This is another tragedy that did not need to occur. The simple sentence you wrote above these comments explains it all - just write down the license tag # on your report and forget about it.
Frank, you are not wrong here.
And from my retired-cop perspective, this is not even the advanced class. This is basic academy-level use-of-force thinking.
You are taught that force has to match the threat. You are taught to slow things down when you can. You are taught to know what the underlying charge is. You are taught that deadly force is supposed to be reserved for an immediate threat of death or serious bodily harm, not simply because someone failed to comply or tried to leave.
That is why this case bothers me so damn much.
Look, I was not there, so I am not going to pretend I know every second of what happened. My suspicion is that this unfolded very fast, maybe too fast for a supervisor to step in during the actual moment. But that does not erase the bigger question.
Why did the situation get to that point at all?
On a reported shoplifting call, the ordinary police answer should be boring: get the tag, get the video, write the report, follow up. That is not weakness. That is just discipline plain and simple.
The public should not have to rely on perfect judgment at the trigger if better judgment was available five decisions earlier.
The subtext here may be that while the facts are still to be gathered in this case, the outcome, like a plane crash, is a tragedy, that needs to be examined carefully to reduce the chance of similar events. Because police organizations in widely-reported past events, seem often to have engaged in cover-ups of police errors or misbehavior, "official" accounts, and especially early official accounts are automatically suspect. I see policing as a noble and essential societal function, but misuse of power is always a possibility in any social circumstance. It seems to me that policing exists to minimize harm, whether that is to stop a thief, foil a plot, arrest an assailant, manage traffic, provide aid, and even, in situations in which there is no practical alternative but deadly force, to use it only when there appears to be no alternative. That is unlikely to be done in full earnestness without some examples of honest mistakes, but even then, aftermath should focus on improvement.
And yet it seems to me that where attempts to cover up malfeasance or misfeasance way too common and way to unaccountable. It seems to me that the primary keeper of the peace in society is our popular support for rule of law and it's enforcement. The great majority of us who are not seriously breaking the law, observe it because we believe in it. Those who write, judge, and carry out our laws have a responsibility, a notch above we ordinary citizens, to perform with honesty and integrity; to prioritize service to society and avoid use of entrusted power in service of self, including recognition and confession of error. That needs to go all the way up to the top; even all the more so; even and especially the president.
The cop was racist and the diapers were paid for!!!
We don't know that. Let's not jump to conclusions. That's the whole point of this article.
I’ve been listening to many podcasts and reading articles about this crime! And that’s exactly what it was…a crime, but the crime was not committed by that little boy, and from everything I’ve learned, the diapers were paid for by the Mothers friend. They went to self checkout. There are cameras everywhere there. That particular town is known for police, ahh problems, to put it mildly. Maybe YOU should do some research, before you make a claim.
Links, please. So far, the issue is still under investigation, and stories are all over the map. And I didn't make any claims. You did. I simply said that we should not jump to conclusions before all the evidence is in. You may be correct that the diapers were paid for. You may be correct that the cop is a racist. But without clear evidence, we really don't know what actually happened. I wouldn't want you on one of my juries because I'd want people who look at the preponderance of the evidence and who listen to all sides before coming to a judgment.
@The 50501 Movement is just one of the many I’ve listened to/read. I’m sorry that I do not have the time or inclination to post every single one. I am an extremely busy person and I fact check every thing I post
All of us are busy people. But we take the time to fact check and to show our work. And we don't make excuses when we can't.
Wow I sent you the main link in my reply. I said I fact check everything I post. I am an activist, who still finds the time to have TWO FULL TIME jobs. I run a Community Activist meeting. The time it takes to prove to you what I have read is exhausting. It’s sad that although it seems we want the same thing, I don’t have the energy
I am so sorry this happened. Racism from so many quarters in this, for sure. I am sick of clickbait-worthy hysterical justifications and smoothing over white privilege - this will not bring any of the countless black and brown bodies needlessly killed because someone called poor shots forth. What needs to happen is some real systemic equity in full force all the time (in attitudes and practice) so that black and brown bodies are not put into such compromising situations where desperation makes them vulnerable to temptation and turns them into convenient targets. It would also allow them to breathe and live normally (like real people!) instead of always having to have heightened, hyper-awareness of their lives balancing on a hair-trigger every. single. day. No amount of explaining-away these kinds of things will make true equality a thing, until we get to the root of the racism, and greed and get rid of it once and for all. Black lives matter no matter how young (or old) they are.
I saw that. just disgusting and disturbing.
I am so sorry for the baby and his family! Incomprehensible!
Please publish the official report when it arrives. It will be interesting.
Rest assured I will be updating this once the FBI has completed its investigation.
My heart breaks over this. It triggers an unspeakable panic and grief over the circumstances and outcome. As you say, answers must be forthcoming and there must be accountability. Not letting this one go.
Carefully added your exquisite analysis to: “Baby Clothes and Neckties: Shoplifting Stories of Need and Recklessness”
https://leslyejoyallen.substack.com/p/baby-clothes-and-neckties-shoplifting?r=1hfbq&utm_medium=ios
Here is how I would’ve responded.
Witness: There she is, the girl with the baby! She going to the parking lot!
Me: Lemme go get that tag number..
Just to be fair there are allegations the driver attempted to run them over but I’ve had multiple situations like this and didn’t put myself in front of a car of a suspect who is fleeing.
We don't know that she stole anything. The evidence is not in yet. Conflicting stories abound. I've also been a mother on welfare with two young children. But I'd never in a million years steal anything from anyone. Yes, diapers are expensive. But I used cloth diapers when I could not afford the disposable kind. We don't know yet if she stole them or not. But low income is not an excuse. It's the reason we blame low-income people for all kinds of crimes. In fact, people with plenty of money commit crime, too. Just look inside the White House.
It should make the whole world cry and motivate us all to do all we can to end this senseless waste of human potential!